Hippy New Beer, Tor.com! Welcome back to the Wheel of Time Reread!
Today’s entry covers Part 8 of Chapter 37 of A Memory of Light, in which regrets are had, fights are started, and consciences are surgically removed for the LOLZ.
Previous reread entries are here. The Wheel of Time Master Index is here, which has links to news, reviews, interviews, and all manner of information about the Wheel of Time in general. The index for all things specifically related to the final novel in the series, A Memory of Light, is here.
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And now, the post!
Before we get started, I want to say: Hi! Welcome to 2014, y’all! And as a New Year’s present to me, please go read this, and spread the word if you agree.
Thanks, and onward!
Chapter 37: The Last Battle [Part 8]
What Happens
With a team of twelve Whitecloaks and the copy medallion ter’angreal, Galad moves among the battle on the Heights, seeking enemy channelers. He engages three Sharan female channelers, using their shock when their weaves fail to affect him to close on them. After they are dispatched, Golever congratulates Galad with what Galad deems excessive fervor. A scout comes to inform him that he’s found Gawyn’s body; Galad goes there, but finds that Gawyn is still alive, barely.
“Galad… I failed.” Gawyn stared at the sky, eyes blank.
“You did well.”
“No. I failed. I should have… I should have stayed with her. I killed Hammar. Did you know that? I killed him. Light. I should have picked a side…”
Galad picks Gawyn up and tries to run, but is flung down by the indirect effects of another channeler’s attack. Gawyn tells him that he failed to kill Demandred, and to tell Egwene he loves her. Galad tells him he will not be left without a brother, but Gawyn tells him he has another.
“A son of… Tigraine… who went into the Waste… Son of a Maiden. Born on Dragonmount…”
Oh, Light.
“Don’t hate him, Galad,” Gawyn whispered. “I always hated him, but I stopped. I… stopped…”
Gawyn’s eyes stopped moving.
Galad stands, and tells Golever to take all of the men and go back to camp. Golever asks what he is going to do, and Galad tells him.
“I will bring Light to the Shadow. I will bring justice to the Forsaken.”
Egwene feels Gawyn die, and screams in agony, attacking the Sharans wildly. Silviana begs her to stop lest she hurt her own people. Egwene realizes how foolish she was to think she would be able to fight through this pain, and lets saidar go. Someone carries her off the field via gateway.
Tam’s archers run out of arrows, and can only watch as the Whitecloaks, Perrin’s Wolf Guard, and the Ghealdanin fight desperately to hold the riverbank. Tam calls for the archers to leave their bows behind and arm with what weapons they can find, and goes to aid the Whitecloaks.
They started forward, running, and Tam was reminded of another battlefield. Snow, cutting into his face, blown by terrible winds. In a way, that battlefield had begun this all. Now it ended here.
He unsheathes the sword Rand had given him, and shouts to his men to hold formation no matter what as they enter the fray.
Fortuona refuses Healing for her wounds, and sends Karede and the other Deathwatch guards, who had failed to stop this latest assassination attempt on her, to fight the enemy marath’damane directly. She knows this is a death sentence, but also knows that Karede would have fallen on his own sword as reparation instead if she hadn’t. Karede is grateful, and Fortuona knows she will make her own penance for this act later. She turns to Min, whom she has renamed “Darbinda” (“Girl of Pictures”) and raises her to the Blood for her role in saving the Empress. Darbinda seems less than thrilled at the news. Fortuona exchanges a look with Knotai; he nods, and she deliberately starts a fight with him over whose fault the assassination attempt is, accusing him of not taking his station seriously.
Knotai laughed. It was a loud, genuine laugh. He was good at this. Fortuona thought she was the only one who saw the twin lines of smoke rising exactly behind him from the Heights. An appropriate omen for Knotai: a large gamble would yield large rewards. Or a great cost.
They declare they are done with each other, and Fortuona storms off, loudly proclaiming her intention to return to Ebou Dar. She hopes that the spy, whoever he or she is, will now be convinced of her recklessness and self-importance.
Rand knows that he is still only a man, yet that the clash of wills between himself and the Dark One will decide the fate of humankind, and he must hold if they are to be allowed to choose their own future. The Dark One creates another world which puzzles Rand; it is Caemlyn, but seeming prosperous and ordinary. Then he sees a fruit merchant casually murder a child for stealing, and no one seems to notice or care. She asks which faction he belongs to, and he runs, seeing she would kill him without hesitation or remorse. He finds the Queen’s Blessing, and Basel Gill inside, but Gill does not recognize him. Gill tells him they won the Last Battle and hurries off to get him a “faction symbol.”
“What have you done to them?” Rand demanded.
I LET THEM THINK THEY WON.
“Why?”
MANY WHO FOLLOW ME DO NOT UNDERSTAND TYRANNY.
Gill returns with three thugs, intending to kill and rob him, and seems confused that Rand is surprised by this. Rand realizes that all their consciences are gone, and the Dark One tells him that compassion is not needed, and that he will make a world where there is neither good nor evil, only himself. Rand is horrified, thinking this is worse than the world he had been shown before. He yells that this will only make him more determined to fight, and shatters the vision with his will.
“You show me your true heart?” Rand demanded of the nothingness as he seized those threads. “I will show you mine, Shai’tan. There is an opposite to this Lightless world you would create.
“A world without Shadow.”
Mat worries that Tuon had been really angry at him, and asks Min to go with her. Min is reluctant, but agrees when Mat pleads. Mat wonders if he is a fool, letting a quarter of his troops go with Tuon. He sees Karede and flags him down; Karede is unhappy, but thanks him for protecting the Empress. He tells Mat he must go and die, but Mat says he is coming with Mat instead. He asks if Karede would rather die pointlessly, or come and try to keep him alive, who he thinks Tuon likes at least a little. Karede tells him he will come, but only if Mat stops inviting bad luck by calling the Empress by her old name.
“Right, then, Karede. Let’s dive back into this mess and see what we can do. In Fortuona’s name.”
Commentary
Oh, Gawyn.
It’s both very saddening and completely infuriating that he only seemed to truly realize what his problem had been—i.e. picking a side—no, picking the right side, and committing to that choice—just before it was too late for him to do anything about it. That’s a kind of regret that seems much too much of a real life one for me not to be upset about, if that makes any kind of sense.
Well, I guess he gets points for consistency, in that his death was just as exasperating as everything else about him has ever been, but I really do wish he’d gotten the chance to redeem himself before he died. But, maybe that was the point?
Not a point I particularly care for, if so.
Ah, well. Bye, Gawyn. You poor, noble, stupid fool. Sigh.
And at this point it looked like the fallout from his stupid, noble death was going to be unfairly significant, as well. Not only because of what it is doing to Egwene, but in what it is inspiring Galad to go off and do—namely, be just as big a fool. I remember reading this scene with Galad the first time around and being all, Aw, crap.
Rightly, as it turns out, though at least Galad’s windmill tilting won’t turn out to be quite as lethal. But we’ll get to that in due time.
I’ll also stick in a small note of disappointment that this was the way Galad found out that he and Rand are half-brothers. I was really hoping that would happen while Rand was actually in the room with him. Mostly because that would mean he’d have to actually react to it, instead of being in the middle of a crisis and shunting it off, like here. Alas.
Tuon’s exchange with Karede is really fast, but interesting, in the sense of how it’s yet another installment in the ongoing series of Seanchan culture is really fucked up, yo. Not that there isn’t real-world precedent for Karede’s determination to fatally punish himself for failure (that was pretty much SOP for the samurai the Deathwatch Guard are obviously based on, after all), but that doesn’t make it any less bananas in my opinion. I know there is a certain kind of nobility in Karede’s actions, but frankly I can’t get past how much it is a totally wasteful practice, in battle or out of it. At least Mat ends up manipulating things so that Karede’s death won’t be a complete waste. So, yay, I guess.
Also, Tuon, seriously, stop renaming people, you suck at it. “Darbinda”, really? Blech. Still not worse than “Knotai”, of course, but it’s close. Min’s reaction to the whole thing was pretty funny, though.
Tuon and Mat’s ruse here was clever, I suppose, but I remember thinking that the loss of morale their supposed falling-out might inspire in the troops was possibly not worth the prize of rooting out the spy. However, I don’t know that the troops have time to notice what their leaders are doing right now anyway, so maybe it is a groundless worry. I can’t actually remember if the Seanchan army’s reaction to Tuon’s fake retreat is addressed at all, so I guess I’ll find out.
Tam’s scene here is very short, but I liked Tam’s thought about how technically this whole thing had begun on a battlefield very like the one on which it was ending. Although, you have to admit that this battle’s a bit larger in scale, Tam. Still, it was a nice reminder.
I’m not sure I agree with Rand that No Conscience Randland is actually worse than the version before it—it’s a whole lot less gross, for one thing—but it certainly is more disturbing on a visceral level. It’s also an interesting question: if it were possible to simultaneously strip everyone in the world of empathy and compassion, would anyone actually notice?
I’m a wee bit skeptical, personally, that doing such a thing wouldn’t lead to the more or less instant collapse of civilization into anarchy, but I suppose it wouldn’t be the first time a society has propped itself up on the fundamental selfishness of people as opposed to their altruism. *tongue in cheek*
What do you think? If no one in the world had a moral compass of any kind, would things still basically go on, or would all hell break loose?
Tell me your thoughts, because I’m out of mine! At least until next Tuesday, anyway. Cheers!
Hippo Gnu Ear, Leigh!
Welcome back!
And the POV’s speed up.
Now reacting:
Okay, So it’s a sad scene, but I still feel like it’s a Star Wars like moment when Luke finds out about this sister. “No there is another.”
Tam’s POV is just, heartbreaking in it’s own way. But think it affects me as a parent that it would not have if I was reading this as my 16 yo self.
Mat with smoke rising behind him is the best visual Tuon has given me.
Compassionless world, sort of the a the same reasoning the machines used in the Matrix of why life wasn’t perfect, the human brain rejected perfection.
Well, it still stands that Rand somehow believed that killing the DO would remove the ability of people to do horrible things and that this was somehow bad.
I must admit, I don’t get it, and if it’s what I suspect, I vehemently disagree.
Happy 2014!
The longer I thought about that sequence after reading the book, the less I became convinced about the possibility of such a society ever surviving past one generation.
Specifically, this society won’t allow any baby to reach adulthood to be actually able to defend himself/herself enough. Mothers won’t have protective instincts for their children. Only a sense of “ownership”.
No relationship would ever hold beyond the boundries of trust.
People would kill each other pretty fast.
Of course, people with endless patience and an ability to plan ahead would recognize the benefits of long term commitments, but without some basic holds on violent emotions, they would never hold to those commitments long enough. Either that, or evolution would open feelings of empathy in them and undo the dark one’s changes.
That’s my opinion. I would definitely like to hear other views on this.
Happy New Year!
So long, Gawyn, you died as you lived, though perhaps came to wisdom on your deathbed…too late, though.
DougL@3: Rand sees killing the DO as removing choice from people. Sure, they won’t do any bad things, but the fact that they *can’t* do any bad things makes the good they do less meaningful. At least, that’s how I interpreted it.
Leigh, in your comments you opined “Rightly, as it turns out, though at least Galad’s windmill tilting won’t turn out to be quite as lethal. But we’ll get to that in due time.”
Don’t you mean “we’ll get to that in duel time” :)
I mentioned this last week with respect to this scene, but I will mention it again as many people may have been away for the holidays and not read last weeks comments. One of my biggest gripes with the story concerns this scene. After Tuon “abandoned” Mat at the Field of Merrilor and pulled out all of the Seanchan forces, I would have liked for Tylee ignore Tuon and lead a contigent of Seanchan forces to fight along side the rest of Mat’s armies. After KoD and her scene in TGS, Tylee was positioned as a Seanchan who would look outside the box. Of all the Seanchan, she had the best understanding (as she said) that maybe Randlanders are not potential subjects. Rather, they could be equal allies. Tylee and those troops who volunteered, would have reinforced what we were told about the prophacies — break all prior ties. If Aiel and Aes Sedai could leave clan and the White Tower (as applicable), then surely a contingent of Seanchan forces could have left the Empire behind. I could imagine if Tylee’s troops came out of nowhere to save Mat at one point during the battle, he could say something to the effect “Tylee, you and your troops are a site for sore eyes. I always knew that you were the only Seanchan general with any skill.” Finally, had the outrigger novels been written, a major subplot could have been Tylee and her troops dealing with the consequences of their actions during the Last Battle. As AMoL was written, I thought the perspective she gained during her time with Perrin and in TGS was left on the shelf.
If I had to choose one of the Dark One’s “created realities,” I would prefer the Dark One’s version of the world which the Dark One created that Leigh summarized above. For me, ignorance is bliss. As a result, I would not know anything was wrong. However, if I lived in the reality that the Dark One created where the Blight extended to Two Rivers and Nynaeve is one of the new Forsaken, then I would know how bad things are. I could understand suffering in a way that one cannot in a reality where nobady knows the difference between good and evil.
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewB
@@.-@ LogainsBrother: I think you’re missing there that, traditionally, agrarian societies had worked very much like that hypothetical without-empathy society did.
Very few children actually survived (between stillbirths and infant mortality, only perhaps 1 in 3 survived to their fifth birthday), and so there was less of an emotional attachment to children by parents who were too used to seeing their kids die. And these families tend to have as many kids as they could afford to feed for the sole purpose of knowing that, when they themselves were old, the children would be there to work the farms.
Of course, in this type of world, it’s hard to envision that the kids would actually take care of their parents once they were grown. But, then again, there’s the whole “Factions” thing, so it’s hard to say what loyalties people were held to.
Leigh, a very interesting question, on first thought I would say of course, what is a world without a moral compass but a snot infused hell storm waiting to happen. Then I really think about it and I dare say that human beings would find a way to still keep this cog running. I mean think about it, how much moral compass do we have as a species anyway, take one history class and you’ll see that is not much. The only reason the planet hasn’t gone to hell in a hand basket is because of self preservation. This is why I also say that once we find a habitable and readily available planet out there in the cosmos, the clock starts ticking on this rock we call home. A moral compass is an individual measure, as a society we can be heartless jackals… HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYBODY NOW GO OUT THERE AND BE THE BEST YOU, YOU CAN BE!
@2. Yes, exactly like Luke and leia, except rand and galad never made out. Except in some unspeakable fan fiction of course. Also, wouldn’t that make gawyn yoda because if that’s the case, I’m definitely going back and re visualizing some of his fight sequences.
It was at this point in my first reading that I became convinced that Galad would fall to Demandred, leading to Mat taking on the man who bested both Gawyn and Galad. He’d step up to Demandred saying, “Whatever. I beat both those guys, together, when I was minutes out of my sickbed. Don’t act like you’ve won anything.”
Can’t say I didn’t like Lan finishing Dem, but I was so sure it would be Mat, closing the circle on his first training battle with the G’s.
@@.-@ – I have to agree with you there. In a world of unchecked selfishness I’d be shocked if civilization would even last for more than a year or two. The illusion might, centered around those powerful enough to maintain it by force, but even that would fall quickly with no one acting outside their own interests unless forced to do so.
As to the battlefield tactics of pulling the Seanchan out, it makes perfect sense from a historical perspective. The feigned retreat was a standard practice of Mongol light cavalry in the 14th Century.
Tam’s POV here really annoyed me, because it highlighted the biggest problem with this scene: the scale was all off. Looking at the map in the book, the Heights are about the size of the island of Manhattan, and the riverfront battlefield would have been about fifteen miles wide. And yet Tam is saying it’s being held by the White Cloaks (probably about 10,000 strong at this point), the Ghealdanin (which were only about 1,000 strong as of Knife of Dreams, but let’s say they’ve been reinforced by troops from Ghealdanin nobles and are up to 20,000) and the Wolf Guard (5,000 strong max, and that’s stretching it massively). So that means that you’ve got a force of, at most, only 35,000 defending fifteen miles of battlefront?
After going back through the book again, I’m just overwhelmed by how poor a job Sanderson did in showing the scale of the battle. The Two Rivers bowmen get about a half-dozen mentions in this chapter, but nowhere at all is it mentioned where the Illianer army is — not even a passing mention of an army that, at this point, probably numbered about 100,000 strong.
The Illianer army is the most galling omission — because it’s a giant country with a large army that we have absolutely no idea where it’s fighting — but it’s far from the only one. There are, I believe, no mentions of where the Murandian army is — it’s presumably bigger than the Band, since Rhoedran was able to raise it to defeat the “threat” of the band, meaning that it’s likely 40,000 or so strong. The only mention of the Tairen army, which should have measured about 130,000 strong, is in a passing reference in one line that they’re among the forces at Thakandar.
That’s a quarter of a million lightside troops that get, collectively, a single mention in a single throwaway line, and yet we know every single thing that happened to the couple of hundred Two Rivers longbowmen that Tam was overseeing. I understand that Sanderson was trying to make this massive battle seem personal, but instead he just ended up making it seem small.
And that’s not to mention the fact that the Cairhienin army, which could probably be at least 30,000 strong at this point after all the earlier decimation, never gets a mention, but I’ll assume they’re lumped in with Elayne’s forces. Which, considering that she’s controlling Andoran and Cairhienin forces and the Band on contract, means she probably had a quarter of a million troops before Bashere’s betrayal, and probably at least 200,000 at the beginning of the day of the Last Battle — but do you ever once get the impression that she’s commanding 200,000 soldiers?
Or that the forces at Thakandar include the Aiel (probably about 400,000 at this point), the Tairens (130,000 or so), and probably about 70,000 from Arad Doman (Ituralde probably had about 40,000 after the battle at Maradon, and I’m assuming Rand could have scrounged up another 30,000 after his Jesusification of Bandar Eben and from the surrounding areas). It’s pure speculation to think about how many random Dragonsworn showed up to fight at Thakandar, but it was said to be a significant amount, which — given that there were already over half a million other lightside troops at Thakandar — I’ll take to mean at least 100-150,000 troops.
Did you ever get the impression that the lightside forces at Thakandar numbered three quarters of a million? Because I sure didn’t.
@@.-@, I think the point, though, is that there aren’t violent emotions involved. It’s awfully amoral to think that parents would preserve their children out of a sense of ownership and self interest, but that’s the horror of it (not to mention, it most likely happens in our world already). It’s precisely the fact that there’s no moral code that would let this civilization survive–no one is killing out of anger, so I imagine they’d be just as likely to temporarily ally with someone who might be useful. It’s only when you’re useless (like the child, or Rand) that you’re casually killed.
Eh, Gwayn’s dead. Personally I think Suian deserved the dying conversation with someone important that he got. Pity about it’s effects on Galad and Egwene though.
I don’t think this World That Could Be is anything more than a pure illusion to try to mess with Rand more. Either that or the Dark One failed Sociology 101.
Humanity without even the mental/spiritual abillity to even form cultural morals and laws cannot exist as a society. There would be no cities, no technology of any kind…no language in all likelyhood because there would literally be no incentive to coopertate or communicate.
Rand being in the (meta)fight of his life probably doesn’t have the time or energy to examine this fact too closely though.
Now whether the Dark One could simply create a characiture of society by basically hijacking everyone’s thoughts and freewill entirely is a whole nother question–but it would have to be followed up with why would he even bother?
I’ve heard that Bernard Cornwell, very famous author of historical fantasy, helpled Brandon in writing some battlescenes. Having read a lot of Bernard, especially the Sharpe series, but also his take on King Arthur and the Archer series, I don’t think that rumor is true. Bernard Cornwell shows a sense of scale when describing a battle, even when he’s concentrating on what’s happening to a character inside a company (like Sharpe and his 95th rifles). When he’s describing the massive battles of the Peninsular Campaign, Assaye or Waterloo, you get the sense of massive scale (hundreds of thousands of men on each side). Also, when he’s depicting saxons battling in shieldwalls against one another, you get the sense of diminished scale of that time (armies of hundreds, with thousands being considered humongous). So I don’t think he helped to write these battles. Like others said, Brandon doesn’t get the sense of scale that’s necessary to the Last Battle, according to what has been set up in previous books (including his own last two). When Rand fought hundreds of thousands of trollocs while he was resting in Tear, you got the sense of scale that Robert Jordan was giving. The same with the chaotic nature of the Battle of Cairhien, which, to Mat, consisted of a lot of small skirmishes. In the Last Battle I didn’t get the sense of scale that an army the size of Napoleon invading Russia should’ve had.
Happy New Year! And Happy Christmas to Orthodox Christians!
Anyway, I was deeply disappointed that Min didn’t bring up the fact that Siuan was as instrumental in Tuon’s rescue as Min herself and how was Tuon going to honor _that_? But as every other opportunity to challenge Seanchan views on channelers, this one was missed, alas.
Also, I hated it how the Seanchan were over-proportionally spared by the ruse and yes, the ruse should have had serious implications for the morals of both the remaining combatants and of Seanchan themselves.
And shouldn’t Karede’s suicide have waited until after the battle? Wasn’t it dangerous to leave Tuon with less familiar guards, who could have been infiltrated or whatever?
Gawyn exits stage left, but not before screwing things up some more. I don’t remember – when did he learn about Rand’d parentage? And why didn’t he tell Galad at Merrilor? Yes, I wanted an actual character scene between Rand and Galad for that revelation. Might as well wish for Moiraine and her niece/nephews aknowledging that they were related, as it turns out…
I do not see how the world without conscience can exist either. Humans don’t have strong enough group/species-preservation instincts to make up for it’s lack, IMHO.
Subsistence societies may be harsh, but conscience and various form of attachment are/were still the glue holding them together.
I think humans are perfectly capable of banding together out of self-interest. Just watch “Survivor” or any of its wretched reality TV spawn–it’s the Dark One’s conscience-free world in microcosm. People will work together to win, and betray each other later.
(No, I don’t think that’s how the world as a whole works–just the worst of humanity. And we think they’re the worst precisely because they don’t seem to have a conscience.)
Happy New Year, All!
@18 Lucubratrix,
This society is what you get if there is rationality with no conscience, and it can function perfectly well… a hellish functionality, indeed, but functional all the same.
Such a society has rules and it would work by factions maneuvering for advantage, with the penalty for losing being death or enslavement.
Children would still be an asset, for there is no intimation that other than everyone being a sociopath that the people in this shadow are lacking in any other human faculties.
People plan for the future, cooperate, trade, build,and do everything else that they do in ur-Randland.
It’s just that there is no notion of doing so for the common good, no notion of justice being more than retribution, and no expectation that such a thing is necessary.
@19, yes, absolutely. If you can’t conceive of evil, you can’t act against it or opposite to it–which is, of course, the point.
Without calling out names and numbers, I’d like to make a few quick comments on the battle complaints.
1) No one (including RJ) ever promised to specifically identify each and every group or named character and their role in the Last Battle.
2) If you can’t find more than “a passing reference” to the Tairen presence at Thakandar, you need to read the book again. Or at least those scenes. Your memory is not serving you well in this instance.
3) Everyone involved has stated or noted or acknowledged that BWS’s way of writing battle scenes is vastly different from RJ’s, at least in part due to their relative experience with battles. Specifically, RJ, having been in battle repeatedly, tended to write much more “real war” scenes, full of chaos and a sense of terror; BWS, having had primarily movies and books to inform his war experience, tends to write his battle scenes much more cinematically. It’s a style difference, and an artifact that we just have to accept due to the tendency of amyloidosis to not give a rip about what we might prefer.
4) Bernard Cornwell’s involvement is not rumor; he did indeed contribute to the development of the battle structure. He certainly didn’t write the scenes, and he didn’t orchestrate the whole thing for them, but he helped a lot with working out tactics and strategies. In addition, RJ’s assistant Alan Romanczuk is a war historian, and he built the battle plan for the war in terms of troop movements and tactics. Not being either a soldier or a war historian, I can’t argue with either of them, and wouldn’t if I could.
It comes down to the same series of complaints which have plagued the Wheel of Time for 20 years or so: fans wanted or expected this or that specific detail in this or that book, which the author either didn’t want to tell them, or didn’t find important enough to include. For some fans, that’s plot vs. character; for others, it’s action vs. relationship; for still others, it’s this character/plotline vs. that one; et cetera ad infinitum. Oh, and let’s not forget “Too short!” vs. “Too long!”
In other news… I think wcarter @15 has a very good point about the World That Could Be scenario – that the DO is simply creating illusions to mess with Rand’s head. They don’t have to be probable, or even possible – they just have to be plausible enough to throw Rand off balance and make him slip.
As to Leigh’s question… Well, I’ve heard it said (and I agree) that we all, always, do what we most want. Even in the areas where we think we are being all self-sacrificing, it’s because we want something else even more. You can say “I’m going to work today even though I’d rather stay in bed” – but the truth is, you go to work because you want to keep your job and your lifestyle even more than you want to sleep. So yeah, I think it’s possible for a society to function based solely on enlightened self-interest: only those who think they have a real chance of ending up at the top of the heap will dare to be too ruthless. Most people will make (and break) alliances based on what they think will keep them alive and reasonably comfortable. Even the casual murder of children is easy enough when there’s no one there to defend the child; that happens all the time in the real world, so I don’t see it being implausible in fiction.
A world of people without compassion? Sadly you can find them just a few mouse clicks away.
Very much agree Isilel@17.
As for the vision of the world presented by the DO, I’m not entirely sure what this is supposed to represent. The DO has always played a satanic role (among others) in RJ’s world, so I suppose one could take this vision to be a philosophical ‘what if’ for a Satan controlled world. If one looks at the Judea o-Christian world view, many would envision some form of the DO’s first vision shown to Rand, but I have heard other view points that would make it more like the world presented here: no moral compass, right & wrong completely skewed.
Given this representation and how the book ends, I’m not sure how the the DO being sealed up relates to people’s ability to choose right and wrong. Are we supposed to understand that his influence remains, but is more diffused, less able to direct towards a common cause and more of a tempter toward baser instincts and immoral choices (i.e. a Christian Satan)? Or is humanity given some sort of Millennial rest break where everything is hunky dory until someone ‘lets the cat out of the bag’ again, so to speak. Given what we are shown here, I’m inclined to pick the former, but given how the ‘Age of Legends’ is often depicted, both before and after the Bore, I’m inclined to pick the latter.
Thanks Leigh! Happy New Year!
I just want to take a brief moment to pour out a little something-something for Gawyn, followed by a brief moment of silence.
…
I choose not to speak ill of the dead in this case, so that’s all of the attention he gets from me.
I’m glad Galad got to find out about Rand; I reaallyyy wish it would have happened sooner.
It’s unfortunate for Egwene that she had to be reminded that, although she’s quite brilliant and exceptional, she is still human like the rest of the Aes Sedai.
I have a great mental image of Tam, sword drawn, charging into the fray to aid the Whitecloaks.
Karede is freed from Tuon’s entourage in a way that honors him, even with his supposed failure. I love that Mat still finds a use for him. Karede has always acted with honor in WoT.
I liked the concept of Mat and Tuon’s little tif, but it sucks that Mat is essentially left without much of a support mechanism for the rest of the Battle as he sends Min to go with Tuon (which is ultimately quite beneficial). Karede was an okay substitute, but he’s basically a bodyguard.
The world without consciences was a weird one. I don’t see it as sustainable (which was probably the point); a number of folks would kill their family, friends and neighbors and humanity would likely die out in a few generations.
…And I’m so not going to touch that comment on capitalism with a 10 foot pole.
:-)
It’s been a while since I read the actual text, but I don’t really see a problem with a world without conscience sustaining itself. There will still be people who accumulate power and military force and we know this type of situation is quite good at keeping people in line. If you still have an instinct for self-preservation and the guy with the armies wants you to keep working on your farm to supply him and keep society functioning, you will, even though you only care about yourself. The same idea goes to caring for children, as long as someone who takes power is smart enough to know he needs children to grow up and replace his soldiers and workers he will order people to take care of their children, or offer some monetary or “tax” benefit for it, or simply threaten to kill people who let their children die.
It seems to me that as long as some people are intelligent enough to realize their life is better with societal guidelines and someone is strong enough to enforce them it wouldn’t make too much practical difference, just life would be a lot more depressing.
“I will bring Light to the Shadow. I will bring justice to the Forsaken.”
FINALLY, it all comes together. In real life, I think the Anthropomorphic Principle is stupid, but in fiction… well, I have little doubt that some part of RJ spent YEARS building up and tearing down the Whitecloacks and Galad in-story and in-setting JUST so he gets to say this line with all the rightesouness of purpose it desrves.
This is actually one of Galad’s most relatable scenes. A book ago we get told that he’s got his life all figured at, that he has rationally worked through his morals and the world so that he always knows exactly what to do. He’s rational, meticulous… Actually reminds me a bit of Cumberbath’s Sherlock (would that make Gawyne his Watson?). In this instance, however, I like to think that the reason he’s so dead set on going after Demmy is because, somewhere in his heart, he long ago rationally came to the conclusion that “You touch my little brother, and there is no hole deep enough or army big enough that you can use to hide from me.”
Tam’s scene is excellent, as we REALLY ge to see where Rand gets his badass levels from. All the lessons on swordsmandship and channelling might have been useful, but Tam raising him is what made it stick.
Silly Tuon. So Tsundere… Well, I suppose someone had to take up the slack after Nynaeve got married…
At the risk of taking this thread sideways (just for a second)…
I’d like to start a list of who is planning on attending JordanCon 6. I’ll open a file up on the TorDOTcom re-readers FB page later tonight or tomorrow too, but if you aren’t a member of that group, then please post a comment here on Leigh’s blog or drop a note in my shoutbox. Real names would be nice to know (if not obvious) so the rest of Leigh’s Loonies can identify you as one of us at the Con. Unless you really prefer to remain incognito, of course.
Thanks!
End public service-type announcement.
Happy New Year, Leigh!!!!
Happy New Year folks! Stay in as it is a bit nippy outside… Though I wouldn’t mind a little snow- in the UK it’s been almost incessant rain and gales for weeks.
About Bernard Cornwell- it’s not a rumour. Brandon told me himself in a signing in London that BC was involved. This was in an answer someone from the gang here suggested I ask in the signing, IIRC. I think I recall this has been said elsewhere too. It’s inconceiveable that I was the only person told of this!
I found it very clear that Tear’s forces where in Thakandar. But regarding specifically the scale of the LB, I have to admit that I didn’t feel it too. It’s not necessarily about mentioning the various contingents, it’s about the feel of the thing whilst in the heads of the various folks in the middle of this vast conflagration.
To be fair this would’ve been very difficult to pull off- the battle is on a scale 10 times or more larger than the largest pre-modern era battles. IMO, it’s impossible for the author to imagine or contemplate truly. And this without even including the Channeling! Well, I find it dificult to believe that either side could pull it off logistically. I never for a second thought that the LB would be, in effect, a giant scrum on a field. I.e. one battle. But this is a different point.
Perhaps it had to be one battle on one location simply because the story had gotten too frayed and would’ve taken too long, too many pages, otherwise.
“Fortuona” and her freakish penchant of renaming people. In our world she would’ve done very well as a sadistic nun in the Irish Magdalene Laundries. There, besides the usual cruelty, depravity, and abuse abundant in other similar institutions, they also changed names of the unfortunate women and enforced it brutally.
Also, I find the discussion on humanity with/without conscience very interesting.
@Ways
I plan on being at Jcon again looking forward to seeing everyone again.
I remember thinking the same thing when I read this particular slice of other-reality, re: no conciousness, that society would be absolutely beyond possibility in that likely hood. The most jarring thing about that scene to me was how normal everone was acting. Basel Gill still owns an Inn? Why? Wouldn’t someone just come along, stab him in the eyeballs and board it up from the inside for himself? And why would three random thugs agree to cooperate and rob Rand instead of stabbing each other in the eyeballs and taking everything for themselves? Really, not nearly enough eyeball stabbing for a conciousless race of people. Broke my suspension of belief, this bit.
Fair warning. It’s about time to unload. You have a few hours while I finish closing out 2013 and adjusting for 2014 at work.
Hi everyone and welcome to the first Tuesday of the New Year.
Just a quick note as I’m running from one thing to the next.
KiManiak @25
I agree with most of your comment except for one little thing…
Karede as being just a bodyguard. Say what you will about the Seanchan but they do have a major Meritocracy thing going on. I don’t think Karede would have made General if he was that basic.
I also remember a section, Damn, can’t remember which book but it was after the Lion on the plains realization.
Karede is looking for Tuon, stops to chat with another general who then describes how they’re getting their asses kicked by this “Massive” army with coordination over 200 square miles. Karede takes all that in, looks at the map and suddenly realizes what Mat (actually did not know it was Mat yet but still) is doing and why and where he is going.
Trying to pull another Seanchan force out of the Malvide (sp) narrows like pulling a plug so he can escape.
You have to be very good at tactics to be able to do that. Kinda reminded me of Mat’s little display outside of Cairhien against the Shaido so many books and years ago.
Darn, that was longer than I meant it to be and now I’m late. Oh well, fashionable late never hurt anyone.
Ways, my friend. Unfortunately I will not be able to come to Jordancon this April and really wish I could. Jordancon 5 was one of the High points of 2013 for me and really want to make this Pilgrimage again someday. Maybe 2015.
Welcome back, Leigh, and Happy New Year!
I’ll admit right up front that I actually cried for Gawyn. Partly this is because, as often as I was frustrated and infuriated with him, I still liked him as a person, partly because I thought there was still hope he could change his ways and redeem himself, and partly because the way it happened and his last words were just so very sad. The way his character was written, there was really no other way it could end; his lack of redemption was the point (although it could be argued that since he realized his mistakes, even if he couldn’t do anything about them, that makes this a form of Death Equals Redemption); and of course the repercussions of his death are another callback to mythology and his namesake in Arthurian canon. That doesn’t make it any less painful though.
As for the immediate results, setting aside the obviousness of what happens to Egwene I have to say I actually didn’t have the impending sense of doom with Galad that you did, Leigh. And this despite the fact I always thought Egwene’s dream of wrapping himself in white like a death shroud was literal as well as a reference to him becoming a Whitecloak. Maybe it’s because the way this scene was written, so emotional and fierce and badass, I was convinced Galad would actually kill Demandred, even if he had to die himself in the attempt. Considering Lan does die (or almost does? I’m still not sure what happened) killing him, it would have been just as heroic coming from Galad. Part of me even wishes it had been him instead of Lan (if it wasn’t Gawyn succeeding in the first place to redeem himself). But the way things turn out is still pretty awesome.
I think I actually missed, or forgot about, Tam’s thought about the Blood Snow and how it tied into the Last Battle. Very well done. I also had to snicker at the first line of his section; indeed after what happened in the Two Rivers back in TSR, Whitecloaks would be the last people Tam would expect to be saving!
While I didn’t care for Tuon renaming Min too (her name is just fine, as long as we use the short version *winks*), I actually didn’t mind the name itself that much, it’s actually rather pretty even if it doesn’t fit her. I’m also not sure how Seanchan it sounds, but I’d have to go back and get a feel for their naming conventions to see for sure; it does at least fit WOT’s style. And while I agree that Karede wanting to kill himself for his “failure”, as noble and samurai-like as it is, is screwed up (and I rather feel the same way about the samurai), I’m glad at least that Tuon realized it too and thus acted to save him, even if she did consider it being “merciful”.
The Dark One’s vision…I kind of have to agree with Rand. Don’t get me wrong, the first vision was pretty disgusting and horrific, but it was also a Generic Doomsday Villain kind of evil; so many fantasy bad guys have made similar threats, storyboarded their apocalypse, or otherwise come close to succeeding and bringing their “vision” to pass that to a point I’ve gotten a bit inured to them–I still find them horrible, of course, but after a while if you’ve seen one Dark World After the End, you’ve seen them all. So to instead see everything seemingly the same, only without conscience, morality, or humanity, is much more chilling and disturbing for its insidious nature–as terrible as what it’s like to be under Compulsion, I wonder why Leigh didn’t make the connection there?–and the likely results of such a world.
For while on one level I think imposing such a change on the world wouldn’t change much (because people are perfectly capable of ignoring conscience or morality to get ahead, and will use and abuse anyone they have to to get there), on another level I do think the world would fall apart–because all of those who would never do anything evil or cruel or harmful because of their consience and morality would be added to the ones who currently still do ill, and that would be monstrous and self-destructive. Without the ability to cooperate for mutual advantage, with malice added to natural instincts… *shudders*
I have to also comment that Mat being uncertain about if Tuon was acting or if she really was angry with him was a nice callback to the very scene they had used to inspire their ruse–since when Perrin and Rand faked their argument, taint-maddened Rand did get close to becoming genuinely angry and using the Power on Perrin. And also, Leigh, from what I can recall the issue of how the Seanchan react or don’t react to the falling out is never addressed, though I could be wrong.
@3 DougL: Without getting into spirituality and philosophy, I think it’s a case of the Dark One’s existence being tied to free will, in the sense that there has to be a being of evil for evil choices to even be possible. Obviously that isn’t true IRL (or it at least can be debated whether it is), but in the context of the story, the point was that removing the ability to do bad things was bad because its removal was part of a general removal to freely choose to do anything, good or bad. Obviously you can disagree whether or not this is true, but it’s clear Jordan wanted to write a story (because this information about the Dark One is directly from his notes, we’ve been told, not made up by Sanderson) in which being able to freely choose what you do in life is more important than getting rid of any chance for people to do bad things. You can disagree with that as far as real life choices and philosophies go, but it’s how Jordan wanted to write the story. You can dislike it all you like, but it was his choice and that doesn’t ruin the story…just makes it one you have problems with.
@6 AndrewHB: You make some good points about Tylee. Her coming back to Ebou Dar to advise Tuon to ally with the Randlanders, and telling her that Trollocs were real, doesn’t seem like a good use of her character or a reason for her arc with Perrin. I wonder what Jordan originally intended for her that didn’t get done… You’re also right about the Dark One’s realities, but the point Leigh was making was looking at it from the outside; yes if you were in the conscienceless reality you wouldn’t know any better or see it as bad (rather like being under Compulsion), but to us looking at both realities objectively, I think that losing free will and conscience like that is more horrifying to contemplate. Not to mention it could easily lead to a world like the previous reality, just with people butchering each other instead of the Trollocs doing it.
@9 av willis: LOL!
@12 neverspeakaword: The logistics of keeping track of every single one of those immense armies would be staggering, and people already complained enough about how the book became bogged down in tactics and numbers and flanking maneuvers; if every one of those armies was included it would have been hard to keep it from becoming even more a checklist of battles and figures. Also it wasn’t just Sanderson, he had Team Jordan helping him; the fact they managed to allow groups or whole armies to fall by the wayside just shows how monumental a task it was keeping track. I guess it’s too bad they didn’t have more beta-tester fans like you who could have reminded them of who not to forget and plan out where they could be in battles without it all becoming a rote exercise in military jargon and formations.
@17 Isilel: I can see why that upsets you, but the simple answer is that Min knew the Seanchan, particularly Tuon, were not ready or willing to acknowledge channelers as having any value at all, let alone that they’d been rescued by one. So standing up for Siuan’s actions at this point would at best be ignored and at worst get Min kicked out as Truthspeaker or killed. She can’t make changes unless she is slow and careful about it, working from within, rather than recklessly barging in and throwing her (well-justified and righteously angry) opinions around. The fact she’s learned to hold back and be more thoughtful shows she’s grown as a character and learned some wisdom.
Gawyn learned about Rand’s parentage in the scene when he visited Egwene before going to Shayol Ghul and discovered the seals were fakes; he had brought her a hair ribbon and commented he saw her as the sister he never had (and that he had a brother who by contrast he never knew). As for why he didn’t tell Galad at Merrilor, Gawyn stuck to Egwene’s side the whole time, with the Aes Sedai; there’s no way any Whitecloaks would have been there, not even his brother. Also at that point Galad was already out with Perrin’s forces fighting in Andor and Cairhien.
@24 gadget: Interestingly, that reminds me of an episode of the TV show Charmed where there was an alternate world in which evil had the upper hand instead of good, and then one act tipped the balance so that the evil world became too evil and the good one became too good. The results were a lot like the World Without Light and World Without Shadow.
And I actually think both possibilities are likely for after the Bore is resealed. Rand does say the enemy was not the Dark One, implying instead it was the “petty men and women” who made the Bore in the first place. It seems to be the case that the Dark One even when sealed had a more diffuse influence, thus explaining why people in a utopia would still desire more/better power so as to make the Bore, and why Rand/Lews Therin would say the AoL only seemed perfect and war might well have happened without the Bore. So now that he’s sealed again the world would go back to a more subtle and distant influence of bad choices and darker emotions–the world woudn’t be hunky-dory but it would get the chance to allow good morals and choices to outweigh the bad, to establish peace and goodwill without the Dark One’s active intervention and his agents corrupting and destroying everything.
@25 KiManiak: Agreed, I liked Karede ever since he was introduced. While Tylee wasn’t used well after the PLOD ended, Karede did get good scenes here in the Last Battle. And while you’re right about Mat not having the support structure, him being tossed out allows him to go back out in the field, in the thick of battle, where he prefers to be (even as he complains about the danger) because it’s there he can feel the pulse and control events more directly. And it’s probably where the fans prefer to see him, too, in action instead of just giving commands. So the ruse served another good purpose of putting Mat back in his element.
@27 SCM: *applauds* Well said about Galad, I totally agree–I cheered at that line, and seeing his and the Whitecloaks’ plotline culminate in this was incredible. Even if he didn’t get to win in the end, the lead-up to it and the battle were awesome. And it does make what happens later possible, when he gets the medallion to Berelain and then Lan.
@32 TheAndyman: Why an inn? Because conscienceless people still want to make money off of others. Why didn’t the thugs kill each other? Because they knew they could get more reward for Rand, and that he’d be easier to rob/kill if they worked together.
But who would reward them, instead of stabbing them in the eyeballs and keeping the prize money to themselves? Maybe I am lacking imagination here but I can in no way see any sort of society functioning in a race that lacks conscience. Perhaps there might be some bare minimum social contract made that says “In order for anyone to have anything not everyone can have everything so try not to be assholes all the time” and people might hold to that out of convenience but I couldn’t imagine why they would. Anywho, I guess to me this reality just seemed like SUCH a stretch that it brought me out of the conflict for a moment.
Alas poor Gawyn. He coulda been a contender. In the first few books he was really likeable – funny, self-depreciating, cheerful. After the Tower split he was interesting, as his rage and conflicted emotions were believable and promised to involve some sort of major conflict involving Rand and Egwene. But when everyone began telling him Rand had nothing to do with Morgase’s death, he just looked petulant. His romance with Egwene was never really believable and the only thing of significance he achieved was saving her from the Seanchan assassins. Ultimately, he seems a rather pointless character.
Which is as good a time as any to introduce something I’ve spent far too much time thinking about – editing the Wheel of Time. I imagine all but the most hard-core fans would agree WoT would have been better if it had been shorter. Tighter, less repetitive and most importantly, RJ would have been able to live to see it finished.
So, with the benefit of hindsight, how would you trim it? I’d cut out a bunch of characters: Gawyn, Nynaeve, Cadsuane, Sammael, Moghedien. Elayne would be a minor non-channelling character whose job it is to bring Rand into the palace (because that scene is cool) and take over from Morgase after Rahvin kills her. Mercifully, there’s no Andoran Succession or circus. More is made of Rand and Egwene’s romance and the series can have an actual significant gay hero – Lan. There’d be no ressurected Balthamel and Aginor. The Shaido would be finished after Dumai’s Wells, so Perrin’s plot after that would revolve around a (briefer) four-way struggle with the Prophet, Seanchan and Whitecloaks. The Ebou Dar and Salidar stories would be a lot shorter.
We’d lose some great stuff – like the Moghedien vs Nynaeve struggle in The Shadow Rising – and you’d have to think of some way to include Birgitte as she’s too cool to leave out, but I think it’d be worth it.
Re: the scale of the battle, I think the Last Battle was generally really good. But it’s a fair criticism that you don’t really get the epic scale of it. What is missing is a brief scene say, through the eyes of Demandred’s hawk, describing horizon-to-horizon battle or somesuch.
Re: society functioning in a world without conscience, this is a fascinating discussion. I think a complex society would fairly quickly collapse. We’ve evolved a conscience for a reason – caring for each other helps glue families and larger social units together, making the members more likely to survive.
Late again; got totally distracted yesterday going off to see The Hobbit Pt. 2, and then one thing led to another, and… you know how that goes?
(Oh, and also because I made the mistake of opening the book to see how far through the chapter we are. And kept reading up till “But it was an ending.” Whoops…)
Happy New Year, Leigh, and welcome back. Great post as usual!
I’ll go beyond my notes a bit here, since I only had one bullet for this section…
Gawyn:
Dies. Poor Egwene. (I think I’ve exhausted my supply of things to say about Gawyn, being the noble buffoon he is.)
Galad:
Discovers he has another brother. (No, that’s not the way I’d want to find out, either.) And now that the other brother is gone sets him up perfectly for a fight with Demandred. Figures.
“Darbinda”:
Tuon’s naming skills are FIRED. I think this one’s actually worse than Knotai.
For the record: In my opinion, if no one in the world had a moral compass, all hell would break loose. Civilization would cease, dogs and cats would live together, you name it.
Braid @2:
That’s exactly the line I was thinking of when I read Leigh’s recap… XD
More later.
Bzzz™.
@37 Grayshade
I don’t think I’d like to edit Wheel of Time as you proposed. Wheel of Time is Wheel of Time exactly because it has a million story threads and characters. Otherwise, it’d be just the story of a sheepherder who’s the one prophesized to defeat the Dark One, with some little help from his friends. That story has been told a lot of times. What differentiates WoT from most of others is the complexity of the story and the world. There are arcs that don’t involve the main characters at all that we got to see, which showed how complex the world was, which in the end was more realistic (in that aspect at least).
If I was forced to edit WoT because I was adapting it to the cinema, live-action TV or animated TV, I’d probably axe some sideplots, like the Black Ajah hunters in the White Tower. I’d trim others, like the rescue of Faile from the Shaido (no need for her other love interest to be introduced in that story). But I wouldn’t make main characters disappear. By main characters I mean: Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Nyanaeve, Elayne, Moiraine, Lan, Thom, Min, Aviendha, Faile, Birgitte and Tuon.
I’d make some characters meet their end before it happened in the original story. Padan Fain and Mordeth could’ve been killed after the cleansing of the taint, with Shadar Logoth gone. What exactly did he accomplish after that? If he was meant to have been killed the way he was (by Mat, in less than a page, after the last battle had been done), then why not make him die before?
Also, I think the Forsaken resurrection could’ve been given only to Ishamael.
Not that I’m criticizing RJ’s story in those aspects as a book. They did give us a lot to speculate about while the story wasn’t ended (who was Osan’gar and Aran’gar, etc), and that was lot of fun. But they’re not essential to the story, and if any adaptation is done, I see them as the first things to be cut.
@36
I think just because there is no conscience doesn’t mean there are no laws, IMO in order for a world without conscience to function the laws and punishments for breaking them would be even stricter ie stabbing someone for stealing from you. First of all a sense of self-preservation would still make many people not try to harm others, because of fear of reprisal or punishment. Stealing a loaf of bread becomes a lot less appealing when you might just be killed outright for doing it.
Also, since people would still be greedy and power hungry I think there would still be people in charge, probably in the form of dictators who only stay in power because no one can fight them, and with the help of other power hungry people who would protect the dictator because their life is better while he is in power.
So I think it is a mistake to think that a world without conscience would be a world without law. There would always be people wanting to keep everyone else in line because they benefit from doing so, and without conscience there is no limit on the use of force to achieve this.
Think of Hitler or Stalin for example, definitely not known for their social conscience but proved more than capable of keeping government, military and industry running (for a time anyway, and with the help of other like minded people), while also limiting the individual’s ability to run around doing whatever they wish, which would bring anarchy. So, I think it would be quite possible to keep people in line and keep society running in some form even without conscience.
@35
I remember that episode of Charmed, if i recall, in the ‘too good’ world the punishment for upsetting the accepted order in any kind of way was that you died or were just removed because that was ‘for the greater good’ and to keep society as a whole ‘good’. Interesting parallel.
In all the descussion of the viability of the consianceless world I think some of the research that is being done would be enlightening.
Specificly I recomend to all the work of Dr Jonathan Haidt who has been developing a theory of moral foundations that attempts to explain both why we have moral structures and the underlying laws of how they are constructed. He has a great TED talk (http://www.ted.com/talks/view/lang///id/341)that is a good introduction and there are a lot of good resources at the site for his book ‘The Rightous Mind” http://righteousmind.com/. Most relevent to this discusion is tha he argues, with evidence, that the moral foundations he is resarching exist because thaty are what make groups able to function. To Quote Larry Niven”Anarchy is the least stable of social structures, it falls apart at a touch.” As soon as you start getting groups yuo start getting morals, either internaly enforced (guilt) or externaly enforced (shame) because otherwise communities can’t function. Torning to the other question brought up in this section, the possibility of the World of only Light. Even though its not obvious at the out setlooking back one can see that chosing is a central theam of the books and that the idea that good can not exist with out the existance of evilis esential to the sructure of the world.
One of the reasons I think that it was Brandon who was selected to finish the Wheel of Time is that this is an idea that he has grown up with because it is an essential pillar of the Mormon concept of the universe. There must be opposition inall things for the universe to even egsist and function. Evil must be possible for Good to have any meaning(http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/2.10.10-12?lang=eng). In fact Mormon doctrine is that the sin that got Lucifer thrown out of Heavan was for attempting to “destroy the agency of men[and women]” and impose the World of Light idea on creation (http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/moses/4.1.1-2?lang=eng#0).
I started this post with a note about how it would have to be brief. I’ve removed that, because yeah, that didn’t happen. So long, lunch break.
@@@@@leigh – yay! Good post, thanks, Happy New Year!
@@@@@wetlander @@@@@22 – agreed nearly completely, and thanks for not making me say any of that. :)
@@@@@several re: scale, but esp. neverspeakawordagain@@@@@ 12 and 13 – in addition to Wetlander pointing out that there are many references to the Tairen army, your estimate of the size of Perrin’s army is also VERY off. After his victory at Malden, while plodding back to Andor, he attracted huge numbers of new recuits. Linda at the 13th Depository has helpfully compiled a lot of data here (let’s hope this embedded link works): http://13depository.blogspot.com/2002/03/military-forces-of-westlands.html
As you’ll be reminded if you scroll down to the section on Perrin, as of Towers of Midnight he’d attracted 100,000 refugees. Some went to their homes but many became soldiers and the Wolf Guard had swollen to 25,000. His TR bowmen by then number 3-4000 (more having been brought in), and by the end of Towers of Midnight his forces numbered 70,000. Even then he was sending out for more recruits from Mayene, Ghealdan, and the Two Rivers.
So your concern about Perrin not having enough soldiers for his part of the battle is overstated, if not completely misplaced.
Your larger point, about the sense of scale, I somewhat grant you. I didn’t always have a sense of how huge the armies were, despite the battle feeling frenetic and epic to me. However, I think that’s because Brandon kept the focus on people and individual moments and only very tangentially on tactics. It’s one of the reasons I’m completely befuddled by people complaining that Brandon only wrote huge battle scenes and ignored characterization. The book is full of character moments, and the battle scenes serve to show who people are.
And ultimately, that’s what I’d prefer to read, so I’m happy with it. The niggling complaint that I have is that we almost never get any numbers on the Shadow’s forces. I’d feel better handwaving the size of the armies involved if I knew that there were a million Trollocs, or 700,000, or 5 million, or whatever. Likewise with the Sharans.
Still, given the number of troops that we know are involved, and the the Light’s forces were outnumbered at Merrilor, helps reconcile me to the thousands of channelers being so exhausted and not having a bigger impact. So again, on balance, I’m satisfied with the sense of scale and esp. with the character moments.
And wow, I didn’t keep this short at all.
Last bit, re: the viability of the DO’s world without conscience – I’m with Brandi @@@@@40, I immediately thought of fascism. Regimented societies where one is ordered into a place and fear and the desire for self-preservation reigns. So it could be viable on some level.
Beyond that, 1) as others have noted, the Dark One might be faking; he is known as the Father of Lies. So the world doesn’t have to be viable.
2) We don’t have to suppose society evolving from nothing into tribes, cities, nations, etc. When the DO reweaves the world he’s not taking it back to primordial nothingness and building from there; he’s weaving it to the form he wants. So he deliberately makes it familiar to Rand (hence, Basel Gill being an inn owner in Caemlyn).
3) Despite being unsure about Rand’s plan to kill the DO, I found his words here to be HUGELY stirring.
It’s unfortunate that either Rand or Team Jordan has a fundamental disagreement with me about the nature of good and evil, because I firmly DO believe that good without evil can exist, whereas (philosophically speaking) evil is the corruption of good, and not inherently and ontologically equal to good.
Oh – I suppose I should say a requiescat in pace for Gawyn. Bye, dummy. You had potential and I feel sorry for you.
I’ll say more about Galad’s duel with Demandred when we get there, but I’m confused by the relative effectiveness of the ter’angreal he wears. Elayne’s inferior copy of the foxhead stops channeling, but we’re told that it’s not complete – *strong* channeling can break through its protection. Considering Demandred’s native strength and his Full Circle and all, I’m shocked that Galad and Lan both didn’t get fried.
@@@@@Seamus1602 @@@@@10 – It would’ve been neat for Mat and Demandred to have had the final duel. In addition to it calling back how he pwned Galad and Gawyn, and him having the real and superior foxhead, it also would’ve let the two generals face each other and Mat poo poo the notion that he was Lews Therin. But…Lan vs. Demandred was also awesome, and Mat got lots of other awesome scenes, so he should share.
Plus, it would’ve felt a little disrespectful to Gawyn and Galad, to me.
@@@@@37 Greyshade – WoT without Nynaeve? No. Just no.
No to many other of your suggested ‘improvements’, too, but esp. that one. Re: other edits – Harriet, of course, is a renowned editor. And I really enjoy every volume of the WoT. Crossroad of Twilight was really annoying at the time, but is an interesting experiment in context, when you don’t have to wait years in between books. Some of the other volumes that many people hate on *I* really like. Winter’s Heart, for example, is a favorite of mine. *HUGE* events building all through the book, culminating in the Cleansing. It felt like we were gearing up for the end at last! (With Crossroads of Twilight putting on the brakes!)
But yes, while I agree there was some bloat, I love every book and…no. Just no.
Re: Darbinda – no. Just no.
From my stream-of-consciousness posts to the Facebook group when reading AMoL for the first time, a couple of things are relevant here. It seems I stopped reading at 1:15 a.m. on January 10 with the death of Siuan. I needed a break.
My next entry was 7:10 a.m. :
[/b]
That was my Gawyn reaction.
Tuon sending Karede, who at least has integrity and competence, and his men, to commit suicide. Stupid Seanchan and their stupid ‘honor’ that has no regard for the value of life. Tuon really ticks me off, here; you can tell that she’s compassionate, thoughtful, interprets things more loosely than many would…and yet absolutely at a fundamental level buys in to every horrible cultural idea her people have.
No. Just no.
Ugh, this is a great book. Ok, back to work!
Ryamano @39 wrote: “Padan Fain and Mordeth could’ve been killed after the cleansing of the taint, with Shadar Logoth gone.”
I understand that this suggestion was made as a type of change that could be made if one were adapting WoT for film or TV.
If Fain/Mordeth died after the destruction of Shadar Logoth, how would that affected Rand’s dueling wounds? I do not have an answer. Maybe not at all. In the same way that after so many books, Mat unconsciously thinks about the daggar when we had no on-screen indiaction that he had such thoughts since the connection was severed.
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewB
I actually felt pretty sad when Gawyn died. Having it happen from Galads point of veiw just made the whole thing tragic.
Galads reaction is also an interesting contrast to Elaynes. She calls Galad a heartless monster way back in the earlier books yet he’s devastated by Gawyns death while Elayne never even slightly cares about what happens to either of them.
First off, about the text.
Tam ~ If all he had left was a sharp rock, he’d wade into the fray with the same purpose. ::salute:: All honor, Captain.
Karede ~ I do not react as strongly in the negative to the concept, in such a circumstance as he finds himself, of willingly going to a death for what he considers an unforgiveable failure. And in case anyone wonders if this is at all over the top, ask Kim Jong Un’s uncle. Oh, too late. Simultaneously, what do we learn about Fortuona that she finds it necessary to promise a self-imposed penance for permittng Karede to make this sacrifice? She would far rather let him live, but the traditions of their culture cannot accomodate that wish. In all of the previous story involving her, she never once bears remorse for carrying out the Seanchan way. This feeling on her part is a strong break in opposition to the imperial norm. Certainly part of this is her affection for Karede from her childhood, but that has never meant enough to prevent her “heartlessly” doing what she thought was proper. Worthy of note, in any case.
Mat and Tuon’s tiff ~ I don’t believe there is a notable cause for the Seanchan subordinates to panic over this. Knotai is a general, and they aren’t even used to him yet. Those that leave with Tuon will do so unconcerned, and those who remain will simply look to their intermediate officers for stability of authority. Seriously, military people during a war can shrug off all kinds of oddities from the top of the chain of command and keep doing their duty.
Ok, now that the preliminaries are out of the way…
Rand and the dark one ~
Conceptually, a world where everyone is devoid of conscience is absolutely far warse than one where people are in perpetual despair. I can understand taking the opposite position, but I’d rather be me in a bad place, than be a coscienceless me in an otherwise nearly normal place. And knowing what I do of Jordan’s mind through this story, he couldn’t possibly think otherwise.
I say conceptually, because this projection of the dark one isn’t remotely possible. This issue goes far deeper than the text would broach, because it crosses the boundary Jordan set for issues of faith. Where there is a Creator, conscience is His voice within us; guiding us toward right and away from wrong, toward wisdom and away from foolishness, toward empathy and away from cravenness, toward Him and away from selfishness. The dark one has no power to bring about the destruction of someone’s conscience, unless they offer it up to him freely. (The condition of a channeler who has been Turned is uncertain enough that I make no speculation in that regard)
So, within the nested fantasies of the frame itself, and the dark one’s vision, it becomes almost moot to try and speak to what would happen to such a society as this. Given that it’s no more than a taunt at Rand, it’s easy enough for the dark one to take the society that Rand has experienced in the past two years and twist it, which would explain things like Basel Gill still running an inn.
Still, taking the supposition to a theoretically logical conclusion, if everyone is out for themselves in the most cutthroat way possible, then there is no basis for trust (I doubt the very word would even exist), everyone is wary of everyone, and would be as protected as they could make themselves becore engaging in any interpersonal encounter. Strangely enough, an utterly greedy society, while it would be unable to produce any growth or advancement which demanded collaborative effort, would be somewhat stable. And supremely horrible.
Braid_Tug @2
I know what you mean about the Matrix, but my take remains as stated above. Humans couldn’t “accept the programming” simply because it was programming. No matter how “nice” it was, it was tyrannical in the extreme, and people sure do like their free will. (Curious, the Rush song of the same name just began)
DougL @3
I also took exception to the story’s way of suggesting that destroying an evil being would be bad for the world. But I think the intent Jordan had for this idea was more subtle than the portrayal on the page. The Biblical construct of our universe posits that the potential for people to choose wrongly is available so that a person’s choice to love God is not a compulsory decision, but is freely given from their heart. A universe created by God where nobody could do wrong, would be little more than a fine stage play for Him. Apparently, He would rather be loved than helplessly obeyed.
Viewed from that perspective, a parallel ideal can be considered to exist in the Wheel of Time universe. As unwilling as I am to criticize the execution of the story, this is one spot I cannot accept. As Rhandric @5 says, the result of Rand’s projection shows him that a world without the dark one means a world without free will, and that doesn’t pass the smell test. But really, how easy is it to describe creation-impacting decisions in fiction, and make them seem even remotely realistic? Most authors wouldn’t dare try, and most who do fail miserably.
Greyshade @37
Brando reference, nice.
Something I noticed recently that Wheel of Time lacks? Darkfriend channelers in other cultures besides the Westlands. On the side of the Dark One here we have the Sharans, who got a civil war between those that wanted to follow Demandred and those who did not. So, some went to the Light and others to the Shadow. But we only get a mention of that, we don’t actually see it. And also the Aiel with Sharp Teeth, turned from the male channelers they sent to the Blight. We see the Black Ajah and the Really Black Tower. But we don’t see the Dark Windfinders, the Wise Ones of the Dark or the Sul’dam of the Night. You know, we don’t see channelers willingly going to the Shadow in these cultures. I’m not even asking for an established society among them, like the Black Ajah, just a mention of a few of these people going rogue before or during the last battle.
This is something that Robert Jordan failed to give us. He set up all these wonderfully-detailed cultures and their different relationships with the One Power, but we see Darkfriends only amongst the nonchannelling ones among these people (Suroth, that Aiel girl that tried to kill Mat, etc). If the ratio of Darkfriends was higher amongst the Red Ajah (due to some of these women hating men), shouldn’t we see an even higher ratio among sul’dam, for example, who are taught not to consider fellow humans as human beings, to torture them into submission, etc? If ambition was motivation for Sheriam to join the Black Ajah, shouldn’t the highly competitive environment of the Atha’an Miere society also be fertile ground for this disposition? And among the Wise Ones I was almost sure Sorilea was a Darkfriend (nonchanneling, but that would be a case). It turned out to be a red herring, that situation with the male a’dam and all that. So all the Wise Ones walk in the Light, with some of them being cruelly misguided (the Shaido), but still not walking in the Shadow.
Heck, we don’t even get a Darkfriend Kin. I know they’re weak, and the Black Ajah dismisses them as unimportant (as does the White Tower), but no one among the hundreds of these women became ambitious or wanted to taste the forbidden fruit, in all the hundreds of years they live. Also, even though there are cases of young women being Darkfriends before being sent to the Tower (and later joining the Black Ajah), not one of them failed the Aes Sedai test. The final test (for full Aes Sedai) can be rigged, with all the judges being Black Ajah, but they don’t have influence over the other tests (silver doors, etc), do they?
Ryamano @47: One correction, “Sul’dam of the Night” are mentioned, in the Prologue to KoD, Suroth’s POV:
JeffS@34 – Yeah, I wasn’t clear with that comment. Karede is a brilliant general, but I meant more in the context of how Mat planned to use him for the Last Battle. Btw, I agree about the meritocracy thing for the Seanchan (With the exception of what station you are born into: slave, commoner, royalty. Even with that, you can be raised to royalty or dropped into being a slave.).
I forget which book Karede showed his excellent general skills in as well, but I think it was KoD.
Oh, and I’ll never knock anyone for length of post; Lord knows I have some doozies.
macster@35 – Wow; good call back to the Perrin vs Rand fakeout scene in LoC. I didn’t think to draw that parallel. And I do agree about Mat getting to be out in his element. I definitely enjoyed reading it.
Greyshade@37 – Um, I think I see what you’re trying to do, but I think Harriet did a pretty impressive job editing while still having RJ tell the story that he wanted. I don’t agree with any of your changes (even the Shaido).
Now, I could see a trimming down (not elimination) of some of the plotlines, but to eliminate several secondary and tertiary characters? Get rid of 4 of the Forsaken? No Nynaeve??!!??!! I’ll pass.
(chaplainchris1@42 said a lot of what I would say. I liked WH a lot, too.)
Ryamano@47 – Darkfriends tend to seek power in WoT. I would speculate we don’t see Dark Windfinders, because becoming a darkfriend wouldn’t matter in raising yourself to the top. Politics aren’t in play so much as skill and ability. Plus, you won’t stay on top; you’ll drop right down to the bottom when you’re Mistress of Ships moves on. There’s no obvious benefit.
Same with sul’dam, for the most part. Once you pass the test, you can raise only so high. I guess I could see the call of being der’suldam to a member of the High Blood and always being “complete” as motivation for becoming a Sul’dam of the Night. But sul’dam only appear to have minor influence in politics and prestige in Seanchan. You’re already in a position of respect just being a sul’dam. (Which I agree, is similar to being an Aes Sedai. But you have to navigate all kinds of politics just to be raised to the shawl.) Finally, like JeffS@34 said, the Seanchan society functions a lot like a meritocracy: you advance based upon how you perform.
Wise Ones of the Dark probably also wouldn’t work. Before Sevanna’s actions, Wise Ones would often fluctuate with who was in charge. So what would be the benefit of becoming a Darkfriend? Ambition and power were possible in Aiel society (again, Sevanna is an excellent example), but honor and ability were what the average Aiel tended to respect. Plus, Wise Ones were already in an elevated position of honor, yet relatively equal amongst themselves (with the aforementioned shifts in authority). And every Aiel girl born with the spark became a Wise One.
Finally, the Kin. They are almost all, by definition, failures of the Tower. It’s possible a darkfriend could’ve went to the Tower with the intention of becoming Aes Sedai and then failed the final test, but would the Black Ajah really let such an asset that’s been trained fall through the cracks? And if they did, how likely would it be that they allow a Dark, non-Aes Sedai saidar-wielder to go back to their normal lives? Failure isn’t often rewarded by the Black.
Plus, Kin advance in status purely by age. If someone were to join the Kin before “going Dark,” there would be no motivation to join the Dark side. You can’t rise in the Kin without killing everyone older than you (which would be kind of conspicuous). As a wise woman or whatever, you’re already going to be one of the most respected and revered people in the various cities or towns you go to. Plus, you’d fear being discovered by any Aes Sedai; including a member of the Black Ajah.
This is all rationalization after the fact, of course. But I think a case can be made for why we didn’t see Dark Channelers in any of the other societies.
bad_platypus@48 – Hah! And while I’m typing this, you go and find an example. Comedy!
Well, whatever. It does say there weren’t that many. I guess my rationalization could still apply as to why there were relatively few who turned.
Still, well researched sir!
Chris @42
Well put, sir!
We had a discussion several weeks back regarding the size of the Shadow’s forces in the LB. IIRC, the range generally agreed was 4-7 million.
@Free
I completely agree. No surprise there since we’re both Christians.
What I had to come to grips with was the solution to my metaphysical angst: The WoT is a circle. Rather than a straight line with the choice at the beginning and the ramifications that follow, the choice must remain for free will to remain. The possibility of good, evil, and redemption will be played out over and over again for the sake of the journey and the satisfaction of being able to love again (Rand’s ephipheny.) The love or hate is more focused upon human rather than divine relationship.
I think I had a subconscious expectation that Rand would break the Wheel (go linear so to speak) because that would be the natural result of killing the DO. That this would be THE Last Battle.
Turns out, I was wrong. Rand couldn’t conceptualize a linear timeframe devoid of rebirth.
Really, a WoT cosmology turns into one big Soap Opera. The Days of Our Lives. Enjoy the interaction and the journey or try and ruin if for everyone else.
It’s tragic that Ishydin couldn’t see beyond a circular cosmology either. It was either wheel or no wheel as far as he was concerned. He had no idea that Rand would get the opportunity to really explore some options.
Lanfear, due to her level of hubris, was the only individual who thought of challenging the divine establishment.
I’m typing this on my phone. I may read it as a whole later and cringe.
And I was somewhat displeased with this notion when it first surfaced in the story. For universal existence to be so futile that the only conditions which are possible are eternal repitition of the same ages-long conflict, or annihilation, fits no reasonable paradigm for a Creator.
What objective is accomplished with such a creation? “Here you go, humanity. Have fun with all the struggle and trouble and the Enemy having more impact on your world than me. Oh, and you’d better win everytime the Last Battle comes around, or it’s Outer Darkness for everyone. See ya.”
And what about Rand? The crucial triumph of this particular trip on the merry-go-round is “This time, I was raised better”. Well, isn’t that lovely, but what about next time, since it looks like there’s always going to be a next time, until we lose?
Not a whole lot to cheer about in that thought.
@@@@@ 39. I think you could lop off a quarter at least of WoT and still have the immensely complex and rich world we love. It’d still be around 9 massive books long!
@@@@@42. WoT without Nynaeve? Yes! Just yes. Yeah, a Nynaeve hater right here. What’s the point of imaginary editing if you can’t nix some of the characters you dislike (see also Cadsuane, Elayne)?
I also enjoyed, on balance, every book – though some (Path of Daggers and Crossroad in particular) did test me. But as you said, there’s bloat – which is one of the main reasons why WoT is a good series, not a great one. Trying to think of how you’d trim it is (well, for me at least) an interesting exercise.
@@@@@52. Yes, you can rather see Ishy’s point. I guess it’s implied that humanity’s champion will always make the right choice, but given the semi-crappy nature of people and how close Rand came to the Dark Side this time, it seems unlikely that the Dragon would get it right every time. For eternity.
Like Isilel @17, I was and still am, quite angry, that Tuon (yes Tuon, no matter how accommodating Mat promises to be) got to spare her forces due to Mat’s tactics. It’s not fair.
Re Rand’s battle with the Dark One
Good discussion. I think that this society unfortunately might work and that sometimes, we’re not that far from it.
My personal problem is, that I just can’t bring myself to “re-read” all those sections, so my comment has to stay perfunctory. I know BWS had to give us a long struggle, but I just don’t feel like reading it again already (it’s only ~ a year since my first read).
No, Greyshade @52, I haven’t a shred of sympathy for Ishamael’s wish to be unmade. Just as I when said @46 that I would rather live as the real me in a horrible place than an unaware me in a less bad place, I would rather live than not. Given the framework of the story, I would stand with Rand every time.
My quibble is with the construction of a story cosmos that introduces an intelligent, interested Creator, but leaves the creation to an endless repetition of ages, with no more triumphant objective to all existence than staving off ultimate annilihation, through the most desparate of trials, each and every turn of the Wheel. A God who gives his creation the twin tools of reason and free will, yet has no better end for those that honor Him, just doesn’t compute.
Maybe I’m just spoiled.
I can’t help thinking that RJ never quite worked out a consistent logical scenario for his universe. There is no doubt that an infinite series of struggles where there is ANY non-zero probability in each cycle of a time-ending event will EVENTUALLY result in an End. Perhaps the Creator intervenes in subtle ways, ensuring that the Dark never wins. Thus, while it might appear that the victory is in doubt, perhaps it really is not.
I don’t know what Jordan’s idea was and, for this and many other reasons, grieve that he is not available to clarify. I can’t help wonder if his “system” changed over the course of writing the books.
@13 Neverspeakawordagain:
“and so there was less of an emotional attachment to children by parents who were too used to seeing their kids die”
Spend some time with hunter/gatherers or in the rural developing nations and witness the grief of the entire extended family at each child’s death. There is no “less emotional attachment”.
Now if you had made a comparision with the 18th/19th century landed gentry who were far less involved with the raising of their children then I might (just) have reserved comment.
Faculty Guy @56, et. al.
I can’t help but wonder too. It’s difficult for me to get my arms around the idea that RJ had his cosmology completely worked out while authoring the first few volumes of WoT. Of course I could be completely off-base, and we’ll not learn the answer unless Harriet/Team Jordan know and are willing to reveal it (and does it really matter?). My guess is that the core concepts of the cosmology evolved, throughout the series, right along with plot lines and characters. We know RJ liked to leave, um, discussion topics for fans to debate ad infinitum. Perhaps the cosmological uncertainties are just another aspect of his
deviousnessstyle. I can visualize him hanging around somewhere in the 8th dimension and chuckling to himself “Heh, heh, they’re still at it and I’ve been gone almost 7 years.”I’d personally like to think the Creator returns at some point to break the Wheel and set time on a linear course (surprise, Rand and Ishy). Perhaps that return would be triggered by the DO winning a round for some reason. Or maybe by the WoTians having evolved and matured enough that it’s time for the race to ascend to the next level of ‘being’–whatever that might be–a concept we SFF aficianados are not unfamiliar with. So, I’m falling through RJ’s trap door too.
Annnd finally, we don’t presume to understand the will of God in our own universe, so why should we have other expectations in the WoTverse? Yeah, I know, for the sake of a story with no loose ends. ;-)
When I have time to think deeply about the “Wheel” and what it means, I get stuck with some of the things that have been discussed the last few days.
I’m glad Rand was raised better, etc, etc, but it does leave one with many philosophical questions that end up as circular in my head as the cosmology seems to be. An unending futile repetition would make me as fatalistic as Moridin has become.
I’ve decided to make a modification to the Wheel of Time Cosmology and will try to describe it to all of you and see if it’s internally consistant or not.
First assumption: The wheel is not a wheel,but a spiral or helix.
We have already seen and read that there are many things that have happened differently this time than last and talents that have never been seen before. We also have little hints that our own age is one that has happened prior to the third and fourth ages. The Mercedes hood ornament in the museum being the most obvious one that I can remember.
We have to accept at face value Moridin’s opinions how nothing ever changes and how boring and repetitive it all is, but I don’t really feel he is a reliable narrator. I would say that overall the prior ages superficially resemble each other when looking at them from 2 or three ages later, but are actually quite different. The whole history becomes legend becomes myth trope ensures that much of what would be a definitive description of an age is lost and later iterations are majorly different.
Second assumption: And this gets seriously out into looney territory once again but I won’t apologize for it.
How many cycles of the so called wheel have we actually had? Is it one, three, Three hundred or infinity?
I think it’s a finite number and less than we would think. Again, we are depending on Moridin for our information that it has been an endless repetition and as I said before, he’s not a reliable narrator. Do we have any corraborating speech from any of the other Forsaken. I don’t think we do but I could be wrong. Even Rand only remembers his prior incarnation from the age of legends. All of Mat’s memories are from this age, so that doesn’t help. In fact besides Moridin, we only have the examples of the 100 heros of the Horn. All of them that are named are legendary but we get no hints from them how many different personas they have had. One of you may know for sure, but I can only remember Birgitt Silverbow talking about 4 or 5 total through out the books.
Final assumption that builds on spiral and a finite iterations:
We have just transitioned to Linear time.
This age and story beings us to a major conclusion. Moridin is dead, so he doesn’t and can’t do it over again. Rand, The Dragon, is dead as far as the world knows. The bore is sealed, the Dark one is unable to influence the world directly. And finally…
“He could … see, just faintly. A figure kneeling down beside him. ‘Yes,’ a woman whispered. He did not recognize the voice. ‘Yes, that’s good. That is what you need to do.'”
The next few lines is Rand explaining that “To choose is our fate. If you have no choice, you aren’t a man at all. You’re a puppet.”
I would argue that up to this point in this cosmology, the actors did not truly have ulimited free will and were constrained from making a real leap forward by that limit. In Rand’s battle with the Dark one, he realized that choice is the most important ingredient. It might lead to Evil, it can lead to Enlightement. A choice to move through atonement for your actions can lead to a different conclusion.
“That’s what you need to do.” tells me that the game has finally changed and they are no longer doomed to continue the endless painful cycle that they have been on.
Wall of text ended and I’m sure that my punctuation is atrocious and my explanation is weak in places. It makes sense in my head though…
Jeff S.
I am only an egg
Ways,
Your comment is what brought me to go ahead and do the wall of text. I’ve been thinking about how to break the cycle for awhile and you comment was the thing that encouraged me to give it a shot.
Having free will or choices that determine your future are very important for an unrepentant Existentialist like myself.
Jeff S.
I am only an egg
@55 Freelander:
“A God who gives his creation the twin tools of reason and free will, yet has no better end for those that honor Him, just doesn’t compute.”
Well this is Fantasy right? So that encompases all discussions of all possible Gods and the concept of free-will yes?
The Wheel of Time is obviously based on Hindu cosmology, where the world is periodically destroyed and created again. Maybe in WoT the Dragon will lose eventually and then the world ends and is created again.
birgit @62 – Well, that would at least have the advantage of making more sense of the Dark One being “imprisoned at the moment of creation.” If creation is part of the cycle instead of the beginning of the series of cycles, then the Dark One is re-imprisoned with each re-creation. I’m still not sure it can avoid feeling like anything but a hamster wheel – it still has “no more triumphant objective to all existence than staving off ultimate annilihation,” but at least one small bit would make more sense.
Yes, Freelancer, we’re spoiled. The human mind simply can’t invent a God worthy of worship.
Wet/Free – I’m reminded of the George Carlin bit where the wiseacre asks the priest “Hey Father. If God is the Almighty, then can he make a rock that is so big he himself can’t life it?” Answer from the priest: “It’s a mystery, my son.”
JeffS @@@@@ 59:
“The wheel is not a wheel, but a spiral or helix.”
That is the visualization my mind keeps coming back to when contemplating the WoT universe. History repeats itself but yet we move forward. It’s a circle but also a line. i.e. a spiral.
Well said, Jeff. It works for me.
I liked Carlin a lot. But not sure if he realized the depth of his punch line. The final question will ALWAYS have that answer. In the instance of this joke, the question implies that the deity is subject to logic. But logic, and the imposition of rationality on the universe, is a product of whatever creative source produced space, time, and the various forms of energy.
Why would anyone think this creative source would be subject to the rules of logic? Only because, as Kant said, humans are not CAPABLE of thought without logic (e.g., causality). But our own limitations should not be extrapolated to infinity. This is just one of many problems of anthropomorphic imaging ultimate matters.
So as it relates to WOT: we should probably not be surprised that the final level of reality ends in inconsistency.
And in 40 minutes the discussion will move on to a new post . . .
Very faculty guy-ish. Bravo!
P.s. I always liked the ancient Greeks and did well up to Rousseau and Locke but after that I had trouble keeping track of the more modern philosophers. It was all metaphorical angels dancing on heads of pins for me from then on. Couldn’t tell my Kant from my Kierkegard (sp?).
RobM: I’m pretty much with you on modern philosophers, but Kant was trained in Newtonian physics before turning soft. I admire Plato and Kant. In the 20th century there is Karl Popper. I recommend the extremely readable “Wittgenstein’s Poker,” a paperback that is an actual page-turner on recent philosophy. Most modern philosophy is forgettable.
Ways@28:
I have already registered for JordanCon. See you there!
I read up to about comment 50, and no one has mentioned “The Prince” or Machiavelli when discussing the “no conscience” scenario.
Machiavelli explores the concept rather well. Don’t worry about having a conscience, just act like you have one until it buys you the most NOT to have one. Develope a repuation for always telling the truth so that other will believe you when you tell the “big lie”.
As many have commented (without using the words) “enlightened self interest” results in people banding together and cooperating, passing and enforcing laws (even if the most inportant law is “the strongest guy gets his way.”). Whoever can pursuade the most followers to follow him with tend to be the strongest guy (not counting minor issues like who can use magic, or I have all the AK-47s in town.)
Fear of enforced laws has done as much or more than “conscience” to support society (since, historically, too many people have not used or lived by their “conscience”).
Faculty Guy @66
No, it’s no surprise that even the most thoroughly designed fantasy cosmology falls short of a reasonable, intra-consistent construct. Truth is both stranger and more beautiful than fiction.
@@@@@ Several talking about how terrible it is that the Deathguards would choose to commit suicide after their failure and how this is an inherent flaw of the Seanchan, they are not alone. Agelmar did something similar when he realised that he had been used by the Shadow, sure, the scenarios aren’t the same, but this does suggest that suicide to make up for previous mistakes is a common thing for more than just the Seanchan. See also: Ingtar/Noal.
Also, rather enjoyed this bit. Think most other thoughts have been covered.